Explain
your
own reasoning regarding the strange incident with Madame Schachter.
Was it a hallucination, prophecy, vision, or a diving warning? Why did Wiesel choose to include this
incident in his memoir? Is this incident
somehow linked to his faith?
I believe that what Madame Schächter saw can be seen as prophetic visions, especially since there were certain points in time they occurred and the way that when arriving at Auschwitz they saw exactly what she described. This part of the story is included because it seems to be another warning to the Jews and is important because it lets the reader know that they had more then one chance to understand what was going on but instead of embracing it they ignored it just like they did with Moshe the Beadle's story. Faith is huge when it comes to Jews, with strict religious practices it's hard not to believe that what happened to Madame Schächter was not linked to faith.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your response. I also think that Madame Schachter was prophet. I like how you used what you know about the Jews religion practice to connect how the incident is linked to his faith.
DeleteI agree with this response. I also think it is a vision that she saw. Most people have these things in crisis moments.
DeleteMadame Schachter's Visions can be atrivited to hallucinations, she was dehydrated and destroyed, and her seeing fire could be attributed to coincidence or she herd of the flames, and it manifested in her visions. Elie included this in Night because it was good foreshadowing for what was to come. This insadent seemed like a vision form god, affecting the faith of both Elie and the others in the car.
ReplyDeleteThough I agree on almost everything you said I have to disagree on your statement that it affected the Jews' faith. Elie did not bring up that they believe it was God just that they continued denying what Madame Schächter was saying.
DeleteI agree with your response. Everything you said I think is true.
DeleteI believe that Madame Shachter was a prophet, as Elie Wiesel said himself in his interview with Oprah Winfrey. I take note of the name Wiesel calls her, "Madame", this is another way to refer to a fortune teller. I believe she truly saw what their fates were. I think Wiesel chose to include this incident because he now sees the incident as a warning to him and the others, instead of simply the breaking down of a woman who has been separated from her family.
ReplyDeleteI like that you gave what the meaning of Madame. I don't agree with you about her being a prophet but I liked how you backed it up with the definition and what Elie said in the interview.
DeleteI think you were spot on as to why he included the incident tin the text. Its also nice that you have background info to support your claim to how you viewed Schachter.
DeleteGood job on the reason why he included her in the text, but I think Madame can mean more than a fortune teller.
DeleteI liked that you made connections between the video and the novel because it shows that you were paying attention to the close details of both the video and the novel. I agree with your thought that Madame Schachter was a sort of prophet who saw what the fates of the Jews were. We can use the knowledge of us believing Madame Schachter was a prophet and apply it to the fact that the Jews were waiting for Messiah, a promised deliverer of Jewish nation.
DeleteI like how you connected what you read to the knowledge you already had and backed it up with evidence. Although I don't agree, understand your point of view.
DeleteI agree with you completely on this. Madame can be a connotation for someone who deals in seeing and or predicting the futrure. Also there have been cases of people with prophetic vision and many of those people's visions have come to pass. And throughout the chapters in the book such as the first chapter in which Wiesel wrote about Moche and his warnings overall Wiesel has been writing about him and the other Jews not listening to the warning of others.
DeleteMadame Schachter had a vision about the camp they were going to. Her vision was fire and flames. When the Jews got to the camp the first thing they saw was flames and they smelled burning flesh. Her vision was where the Jews were getting killed. Elie put her vision in his memoir because that event was a vision of what was going to happen to the Jews. The event had a major effect because it was the flames that Elie lost his faith in. I think that event was a message of God telling them to not lose faith in him because after they die all their suffering would be gone and they would be in heaven.
ReplyDeleteI agree with everything you said and the connections that you made to his faith. Also don't you think it could be a warning of what to come, but also not to lose faith in him. Also what do you mean by the event had a major effect because it was the flames that Elie lost his faith in?
DeleteI think that Madame Schachter had a vision as well. They cattle cart was way too far away for her to see the flames from a good distance.
DeleteI believe that Madame Schachter's screams of seeing fire were a warning, much like Moshe the Beadle telling his experience when he was deported with many other Jews. Madame Schachter had more information about what was happening because of her husband and two eldest sons being taken to these camps. This allowed her to have more insight about what was happening in the camps. I believe Elie Wiesel decided to include this incident in his memoir because he knew that, once again, the Jews were given a warning as to what was truly happening yet they decided to remain ignorant. Although, this time, the warning being given to the Jews was given to them much too late. Late enough that there was no escape from their fate. I don't see much significance between Elie's faith in Judaism and the incident with Madame Schachter on the cattle wagon that was on the way to Auschwitz concentration camp.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with what you said about Madame Shachter having more insight about the camps than others. If her husband and son had been taken, how could she possibly know about the fire? Even if they were allowed to send notes to her they wouldn't talk about the horrifying elements of the camps because the Nazis prohibited them from talking about it. I think for that reason her warning had to come from God because there was no other way of her knowing of that information.
DeleteI don't necessarily agree with your statement about her having prior information because if her husband and son were taken before her, shed have no information about their whereabouts. I do agree with what you said about the Jews remaining ignorant to different warnings.
DeleteAt first I thought that Madame Schachter was simply hallucinating when she called out that she saw flames. I thought that because of the cattle car's poor condition, she wouldn't be in her right mind. I now however believe, after reading more into the book, that Madame Schachter's proclamation was given to her by God. Seeing as this book is about Wiesel's test with his faith, it would make since that God gave the warnings to the people. Thinking back to Moshe's warning and Madame Schacter's being done close together, the situations are too coincidental to not be from God. This incident is connected to Wiesel's faith because it shows how his faith overtime was decreasing little by little. Overtime we see Elie loosing trust in God, and I think that proves even more that Madame Schachter's warning was from God because God was testing Elie's faith from pre-deportation to his time in the camps. I think Elie included this in his memoir because it was poignant as a woman had a premonition that no one believed, but also because he might have been upset that he didn't listen to her.
ReplyDeleteSuch a great response to the questions. You had everything on point. Good job. yasssss
DeleteI agree with you. I also thought that it was a hallucination then turned to prophet.
DeleteI agree that Madame Schuchter's visions were from God, but I also believe that they are one of the only things that allowed Elie to hold onto his faith. He very clearly still had a bit of a belief in God, and does not say things forsaking God like the others, so he still believes a bit.
DeleteI believe that what Madame Schachter saw was a divine warning. I believe this because Elie says he had seen her before, and mentions nothing about her being taken with the Hungarians who took Moshe the Beadle, so she could not have seen any of the crematories before. She also begins to see them again once they get closer to Auschwitz, so she very clearly knows they are coming. I believe Elie included this because it is one of the things that allowed him to keep his faith. When he saw the smoke, he looked back at Madame Schachter, as if he knew that she had seen a vision of it, and that it couldn't have been from anyone else but God. I think it also reminds him also that God did not forsake them, because he provided them with multiple opportunities to escape, but he and the other Jews were too blinded by optimism to heed the warnings.
ReplyDeleteI like the vocabulary you used but I don't agree with the point that you made about Madame Schachter allowing Elie to keep his faith but I see how you'd get that.
DeleteThe fact that you mention the way that Elie looks back is a refresher, I had almost forgotten about it.
DeleteAt first i thought Schachter was screaming because she had imagined a death so horrible while she was in the cattle car that she had lost touch with what was reality opposed to her imagination due to the intensity of whatever she had seen in her head. As the story progressed i began to think that maybe Schachter had actually had a vision of what was waiting for the prisoners at Auschwitz and as she screamed about how she saw the flames she was trying to warn the others in the cattle car but instead of believing her everyone assumed her as crazy. I think it was included in the story because it was another warning that the Jews either ignored or watered down. I think this incident is linked to Elies faith because at this point he had not yet completely lost his faith. But when discovers what the woman saw was true and he learns of all of those burned in the fire, he loses his trust in faith and "watches his God die."
ReplyDeleteI like how you gave your opinion on what you thought she was see and how your thought evolved. I agree with you about her vision. I do agree that she was a warning.
DeleteI think Madame's strange incident was a prophetic vision. I think God or Madame's husband who had been taken to these camps before sent that vision to Madame to warn her of what was coming. Wiesel chose to include this incident in his memoir to show how the Jews were warned ahead of time of what was going to happen, but simply decided to ignore the warnings. This incident was linked to Wiesel's faith because the Wiesel was devoted to his religion and one could assume God was trying to help Wiesel out.
ReplyDeleteWhile I agree that Madame had a prophetic vision, I'm not quite sure how this vision could have been sent to her from her husband, as the only way I could see that happening iis if he were dead, which was not specified in the book thus far.
DeleteI agree that this was a prophetic vision sent from God. I don't think that her husband would have been able to send her a vision because that is not possible for a human to do. There would be no way for Madame Schachter to talk to her husband or for her to know that information herself. I believe that the vision had to be from God because no one else would have been able to see the flames and relay the information.
DeleteI agree with you stating that the Jews decided to ignore the warnings that were given to them because they didn't believe that someone would do such horrible things. I also really liked that you linked this incident with Elie's faith. The reason you gave that the fact Elie and the other Jews ignored these warnings because they believed God would only put them in helpful situations was a very valid argument to my response of the last question.
DeleteWhat made you think that it was God or her husband?.....I think that your reasoning behind why you think is a prophetic vision is awesome!
DeleteI think that Madame Schachter was having a vision and had a pit of warning, that something terrible was going to happen, and a fire was what she visioned. When they got the warnings from Moshe the Beadle, she could possibly put together the pieces and vision that. Elie Wiesel probably chose this incident to include in his memoir because, it shows how real it was and how everyone dealt with it differently. The way she acts, foreshadows the events that are to come, and that she was right, but everyone wanted to be in denial of her visions and feelings. I think this incident may be linked to faith because someone or something has to be telling her or "showing" her the fire, giving her a warning that a lot of people may deny because some are doubting Gods will.
ReplyDeleteI 100% agree with you that she had a vision that something terrible was going to happen. I like how you had Moshe in the response and how he was a warring too. I like how you backed up what you said about why it was in his memoir.
DeleteI agree with your statement of Madame having a vision by figuring it out through Moshe's warnings. I like your explanation of how this incident could of been linked to Elie's faith. I like how you included what Madame was doing on the train.
DeleteMadame Schachter's vision was a premonition. A premonition is a vision regarding the nearby future.They can occur if someone has some sort of pyschic ability which is directly linked to their senses. You can gain this ability however by either you or a loved one go or going through a traumatic or terrifying experience. Also people who are deeply religious are more susceptible to premonitions and often call them a prophecy. Which is more or less the same thing. As Madadme Schachter's older sons and husband were seperated from her and she most likely had a fear growing in her head about them possibly being dead she met the conditions of getting premonitions or prophecies. Also since it is likely Madame Schacter's loved ones were dead they were most likely sending these visions as a warning to her from beyond their grave. As I said before very religious people are very susceptible for premonitions and otherworldly abilities in this area.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I liked was how you identified a premonition. I like how you included how a premonition can occur by a person you loved going through a traumatic experience which in this case would be Madame's family. I also agree with how Madame's loved one's were most likely dead and that they were the ones trying to warn her.
DeleteI agree with your point that the things that Madame Schauchter saw were premonitions, but I do not believe they came from her husband and eldest sons. They were not dead when she got these premonitions, they were just in a different cattle car than she was, as it says on page 33.
DeleteMadame Schachter's visions can be described as hallucinations. The lack of food and water caused her to see the images of fire. I think that Elie included this in his memoir because he maybe saw this as a warning. This was warning them of their fate at the camp. This seems to be a test from God to see if Elie will believe the prophet sent to warn them.
ReplyDeleteI agree that the vision where hallucinations, and that Elie saw this as a warning from god, but I think that he also included it as it was foreshadowing of whats to come
DeleteI do understand how you could see this as a hallucination, by making the connection that the lack of food and water can make you see things. Couldn't something be warning her and making her see the vision that a fire was to be brought upon into their lives? Like it's a warning, but for a reason.
DeleteI believe that Madame Schachter saw the flames through a vision because they were too far away from the camp to see it from a distance. In chapter 3, it states that they did see the flames as they were being separated into group by age, health, and gender. Being that Madame Schachter was portray as a crazy lady, nobody ever would of thought that what she was saying was true. I believe that because Wiesel included the incident into his memoir , it has to have a deeper meaning behind it. I don't believe it was religious based because she wasn't screaming "God is telling there is fire". She was screaming "Fire! I can see a fire! I can see a fire!" I also believe that Elie also mentioned Madame Schachter because it better explained his own story in a way.
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed your refernce back to the book, specifically chapter three as a lot of "make it or break it" events occurred in that chapter. Could you possibly elaborate on what you mean by "it better explained his own story in a way."?
DeleteWhile I agree with you on that Madame Schachter's outbursts were actual visions and not hallucinations I do not agree that it is not connected to religion. This is because the first chapter talks about Moche only escaping the camps by a miracle which is related to God. Visions foretell the future and can be linked to a prophecy which is a message from God.
DeleteComment to Bree H- What I mean by it better explaind his own story in a way is that it told his experiences on the way to the camp and how that effect made a bigger impact later on in the story.
DeleteI believe that Madame Shachter was a prophet because she could point out exactly where the fire was coming from.When they were far away from it and very close.Her warning matched perfectly with what was happening. I say it is not hallucinations because her warning was of something that was happening at that exact time. And I think that if it was a vision she would have not been able to point out she seen exactly. Ellie decide to include this memoir because this is one of the things that really affected him. This is one of the things that he promised to never forget. This is linked to Ellie's faith because it made Ellie somewhat question what was right and made him slightly fall of what he believed.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Madame Schacter had a vision in her incident. Her saying that she seen fire and flames was probably a warning that something bad is gonna happen at the camps. In the book it was said that Madame Schachter was at mostly quiet. But Wiesel probably included her to show how Jews were very scared and very afraid going to the camps. This didn't determine his faith though because one he lived through the holocaust. But at the same time probably did because his whole family past.
ReplyDelete